This is what your “religious freedom” looks like.
There are basically two sorts of people who are upset about Michael Sam kissing his boyfriend on ESPN after being drafted into the NFL. First, there are the sort who feels like his or her religious freedom is being infringed upon when they don’t feel the freedom to publicly proclaim their disgust and objection to homosexual displays of affection. These folks are upset, because they believe it’s unfair that they are called bigots when they say something bigoted…. because they claim that their bigotry is a “religious belief.” Many of these folks are the same ones who want businesses to have the right to refuse service (gay wedding cakes and all that) to people who don’t share their same beliefs (Incidentally, this is a point of view that could very easily result in store with signs that say, “No Jews Allowed”). I don’t have time to go into all the reasons why their argument is without merit.
On a side note, it’s hilarious to me that these people think that the only thing keeping straight people straight is the knowledge that being gay is wrong.
Then, there are the sort who are very concerned about all this gayness being “shoved in our faces” (you can’t say “down our throats” on this particular issue)–These are the folks who are worried that if their kids discuss homosexuality or see same-sex couples showing each other affection on TV, it might turn them gay. Behind this very real concern is the belief that our sexual orientation is not based on who we are, but instead is based on what we see, what we do, or something as simple as a choice. The insistence that being gay is a choice is an important point for anti-gay people, because if it’s NOT a choice, it becomes very hard to tell the LGBT community they are doing something horribly wrong. The worry is that if their kids see a man kiss another man on TV, it might give their child the dangerous idea that being gay is normal and nothing to be ashamed of…. And we can’t have that.
I’m not sure when in my life it became so important to make sure everyone knew I wasn’t gay. I can remember being in about the fifth grade, and sitting on the bleachers watching the girls play basketball, and trying to decide how I was going to sit so that I would look the coolest/manliest/straightest (those things all kind of went together). There were cool ways to sit, and there were uncool ways to sit. I have always, for my whole life, been most comfortable sitting with my legs crossed (“Criss Cross Applesauce” if you work in elementary schools, “Indian Style” if you’re politically incorrect), but this was not an acceptable way to sit on the bleachers. If you sat with your legs crossed (one leg over the other in a “womanly” way), you were skewing a little gay. Legs spread, leaning over, elbows on your knees…. THAT’S how all the cool kids were doing it. I guess that in order for no one to mistake a middle-schooler for being gay, you needed to sit like you were on an imaginary toilet.
Siddhārtha was definitely NOT cool in middle school.
There were more of these little gay litmus tests around that time. When I played basketball, sometimes, as I got tired, my hand would hang limply at my wrist. As soon as I noticed I was doing it, I would make a fist and straighten my wrist–so no one would get the wrong impression. But really, there was more to it than just showing other people that I was straight–I felt like I needed to be vigilant with my young masculinity for the sake of my own straightness. And in my self-conscious little adolescent mind, something like a tired, limp wrist while playing basketball–left unaddressed–could be the the first domino in a line that could end up turning me gay. There was always that worry: That if any seemingly unmasculine mannerism wasn’t dealt with, I might end up wearing assless chaps in some parade. Never once did I think to ask myself the simple question: “Who are you attracted to?” I had always loved girls, fantasized about them, lusted after them…. But that simple fact wasn’t enough to put my mind at ease. The stakes were too high. I had to keep proving to myself and others that I was a man. And in that world (and in many young men’s worlds), being a man was defined as liking women, while ironically hating any action that might be construed as feminine.
Imagine, for a moment, if the expectation of growing into a young man was based on things like being a person of integrity, things like telling the truth when it wasn’t easy, things like being unselfish and putting other people first…. Imagine the trouble I might have avoided. Imagine the sort of man I might be today if, during adolescence, I had put the same amount of energy into growing my character as I put into letting the world know that I was into girls and not guys. All this energy spent on “throwing like boy” or NOT “throwing like a girl.” It’s interesting how much of the concept of “being a man” was based on hating things about women–Their emotions, their tears, their perceived weakness…. “Look at how I’m sitting! This is how a MAN sits, baby!!”
“Are you a brotha or a sista?” Well, I’m an only child….
Through the following years, enlightenment came very slowly (as it often does), and it was usually accompanied by experience. In college, I questioned how some people’s physical bodies could be born with gender confusion, but we (Christians) insisted that homosexuality was a gay person’s choice. Then, add to that the life-altering experience of actually getting to know people who are gay. For a long while after that, I tried to separate a person’s homosexuality from (what I considered to be) the sin of ACTING on that homosexuality–You know, the whole “Love the sinner, hate the sin” thing. Finally SOMETHING CHANGED, and there I was, relinquishing my right to pass judgment on whether God actually condemns physical shows of affection between same-sex couples, and accepting and affirming a same-sex couple’s right to every bond the state OR THE CHURCH affords me and my wife.
Then last year, an editor from the Huffington Post contacts me to ask if they can share a blog post I had written about the whole Duck Dynasty brouhaha. I told him I would be honored. A few hours later, something I had written was up on the Huffington Post…. On their Gay Voices page! I admit, it was a little strange to see my post there. My wife asked me, “Do you think we should tell him that you’re not gay?” And from somewhere–I’m not sure where. I guess it was my mouth–I heard the words, “I don’t think it matters.” As I said those words, it felt like a Level Up in a video game. An Enlightenment Level Up. Uttering that one little sentence–and knowing that I actually meant it–felt like letting go of a fear I had been carrying around since before I could even put it into words. Part of a fear, at least….
It’s unfortunate that much of my understanding about homosexuality came from Mr. Roper on Three’s Company….
It’s a fear that I carried with me even into fatherhood. A fear that discouraged letting my son put on one of his sisters’ dresses. A fear that made me play differently with my son than with my daughters. A fear that brought with it different expectations, and with those different expectations, different disappointments. If one of my daughters did something uncoordinated while playing sports, it was easily laughed off. But if my boy completely missed the ball while playing soccer, his lack of coordination was somehow perceived by me as an indictment of his masculinity…. and really, also an indictment of mine. Some of those old middle school lessons are still in there, and those ancient, errant beliefs still surface from time to time. And tragically, I’m tempted to treat my son like a tired wrist that needs to be straightened….
More athletes flaunting their sexuality….
But luckily, parents are not the reason for a child’s homosexuality (which should be a good reason for people to relax about adoptions for same-sex couples). I’m not sure exactly how I would react if one of my kids came out to me, but knowing that I am not the reason behind my children’s sexual orientation is a very freeing thing. And it feels very peaceful knowing that if any of our kids came out to us, my wife and I would love and accept them without condition, and we would be filled with pride to be on the front row at that kid’s wedding. So if you’re worried about how to keep your kid from turning gay, don’t. You’ve got about as much control over it as you had over your own orientation–None. Adolescence is hard enough without the burden of being told (either with words or unspoken communication) that a person’s orientation is based on choices or actions he or she might make. Take that time that you would have spent trying to insure your child’s straightness, and teach your kid this lesson: Figure out who you are, and then go be the best possible version of you. It’s a way better use of your time.
The Boeskool 
I would lie to write a long essay about my brother-in-law, whom I loved, that since birth, was born with a tendency to be dishonest with himself and others, He always had something to blame things on and from the beginning, his mother deemed he was just “special”. As he got older, the world began to confront his behavior. It was less tolerant. He tried several jobs but his dishonesty never proved him worthy. He even worked for me until he decided “construction was just too hard”. Instead of making this a long boring essay…..I’ll shorten it. Stephen lived at home (with mom) until his early forties. He was provided beer and cigarettes and drove a car. He did not support himself because of course….he was born that way. His enabler never had the power to “confront in love”.
He went to the doctor at moms request for a routine physical. Diagnosed with a quarter inch melanoma, he was instructed to return for its removal immediately….an easy fix. He never showed and the beer and cigarettes kept coming. Two years later he was admitted to the ER with a melanoma the size of a bran muffin. The doctors were aghast. Stephen was dead in 4 months. The point is sin must be confronted!
“There is a way that seems right unto a man but the way therein is the way of death!”
Mothers form of love can often over shadow the real Love that comes only from God. For those of us that truly believe in Jesus and the Word that represents His Mission, we try our best to abide in Him and His instruction to keep us safe from the consequences of sin. Through his Apostle, He spoke the words “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers will inherit the Kingdom of God.”
Now that lists an awful lot of things and human beings must admit, we all struggle with some more than others in our own personal lives and have since “birth”. Of all the “sinful acts” mentioned, I know of only one that there is an effort to try and legitimize to the Body of Christ. That is the one of “homosexual offenders”. The word in the Greek is arsenokoites; one engaging in homosexual acts. (notice the similarity to the word “arson”) Not only is the translation correct, the scripture is consistent throughout Gods love letter to us for living.
So for those who do not look into that “wonderful law of liberty” for themselves…. there is the challenge. Run away from that form of love that falls far short of the true love that God has for you and Jesus died to preserve!
1 John 1:8-10
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
bdhstone, I’m sure that Boeskool and I both appreciate your desire for the whole truth that is “Jesus and the Word that represents His Mission”, but to condemn anyone who practices homosexuality is to also condemn yourself. As Christians we often forget that there is no hierarchy of sin. Every single person, whether they be lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, straight, or anything in-between, according to Christian beliefs, suffers from our simple human condition. We all need Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins.
You are not Jesus, and no amount of you trying to limit the liberties of others will make anyone discover the love of Christ. How about you try to get to know and love those who you’re different from without an agenda? Is this not something that Christ calls us to do? Using the bible to remind people that homosexuality is a sin (believe it or not, everyone knows) doesn’t make you a hero or standing up for your beliefs or loving to anyone. It makes you look like the people in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiizB9Lkqk
You are very dishonest in your reply to me. Neither I nor Jesus condemned anyone. All we did was point to behaviors that are unhealthy to us both temporal and eternal. Why aren’t you so defensive about the other sins mentioned? What about someone that has a propensity to drug addictions? Do you want to excuse them and make them comfortable in their lifestyle….or rather would you like to perhaps encourage and exhort them to live a new way? Of course we need Jesus for our human condition….but you want to alter and modify His Truth to fit your own desires! I’m not watching your video.
I do not believe bdhstone is judging, or condemning, he is simply saying that there is a right and a wrong. We could write the same essay about a multitude of sins. But the issue of this essay is not really about not judging a sin, its about saying something is not a sin.
Gabriel–I am not saying “Homosexuality is not a sin.” For all I know, God might still get pissed off when I eat a Shrimp Po Boy.
What I am saying is that the issue is far from settled. Jesus told his disciples that he has a whole lot of other stuff to tell them, but they wouldn’t be able to handle it. Jesus lived in an actual time–A time that wouldn’t have been ready to hear messages of gender equality or deal with women in the roles they are in today. This does not mean that God never meant for women to be CEOs.
As I laid out in the link (Gay Marriage and Green Eggs & Ham), I think there is a precedent that Jesus set in matters of Law vs. Love about always siding with love. The Bible is not a list of answers to the question “Is this sin or not?” It is laying out a way of thinking. A new way to love. A freedom that naturally comes with letting go of judgment. And a security that naturally comes with knowing that God is for us, and not against us.
I’ve got some bad news for you: If God is really as pissed off as most evangelicals believe him to be, we are all screwed.
I agree with you fully Galileo//Emerson. Jesus doesn’t need us to be his policemen. People will not make changes in their life by others going around pointing the finger at them and telling them what they ought to do. Take the example of addictions which bdhstone points out below. I work at an organization where I deal with people who have major addiction issues and in extreme poverty etc etc. They know it isn’t okay to shoot up, or beat their spouses so I don’t need to tell them that. By showing them love and treating them as human beings worthy of being cared for (which they are), people open up and become motivated to make changes in their lives, and allow us as workers to help them where we can. Jesus never harped at anyone to change their lives, he set an example through love.
bdhstone–I am sorry about your brother. We don’t know why it is that people make the decisions that they make. I can tell you this, though. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of personal responsibility. It is a gospel of grace. There is time to talk about responsibility, but there is more to it than that.
When someone tells a lie, most of us can feel inside of us that we are wronging someone. Who to you feel is being wronged by Michael Sam embracing and kissing the man that he loves?
Michael Sam wronged no one. It is the lifestyle that is currently glorified by many that leads to death and destruction. It is fine, even commanded for a man to love a man in the form of Agape love. It is when we get to the “eros”…..that’s what the Word speaks of. When we deceitfully confuse the two, it’s when we get into trouble. As for “believers”. we are to avoid even the appearance of sin. That is why my message is that believers need to accept all people as well as edify. By justifying sin for them…..we do not edify. I have written this thread because I believed I was writing to Believers. If I were writing to to the gay community. I would be writing about how much they are valued and there definitely IS a better Way! Gay and promiscuous lifestyles were in abundance in and around the time Jesus walked the earth. Never have I heard of Him attending an orgy or such, but I do recall Him saying, “Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”. With the help of Jesus, I do my very best to heed that command.
bdhstone, I have a question for you. Why does any one else’s sexual behavior or proclivity matter to you? It must, or you would not have taken time to write your reply.
As for your statement about only one form of sin that is trying to be legitimatized to the body of Christ, I am wondering where your list of sins comes from. Is it from the Old Testament? In that case, there is a long line of sins that have been legitimized to the body of Christ. We wear wool and cotton together. We eat crab and shrimp and ham. We don’t marry our brothers’ widows, etc. etc. etc. Is it from the New Testament? If so, are we looking at Peter’s or Paul’s list of sins? Or are we taking the list directly from Jesus Christ? In that case, explain to me how Divorce has not been legitimized to the Body of Christ, or lusting in one’s heart, or corbin…yeah corbin, using charitable giving to enrich one’s self. We have a whole tax structure based on giving churches the right to claim corbin and getting rich off it.
And then there is that pesky thing about judging…oh dear. And there’s that other one about there only being ONE mediator between humanity and God, and forgive me, but your words sound like you have determined which sin is more heinous than another. And then you cloak yourself in the technicality of your words while your message reads loud and clear. And of course, you use the technicality to describe a different view as dishonest…
Sorry, but your posts seem to me to be disingenuous at the least and misleading and self-righteous at their worst.
Jim, I need to know, is Christ your personal Savior? Have you honestly and sincerely looked into His Word? Your post seems like you have not done any study,praying or self reflection. There is evil in the World and I was once part of its glorification. Christ delivered me from some terrible things. I am often tempted, but with His spirit, I fight! I’d encourage you to not give up. We have all been bought with a price!
bdhstone, normally I would not bother to reply to your questions.
First of all, I doubt that my reply will make any difference to you because you seem to only understand one small part of the Bible and apparently have embraced the limited theology of Evangelicalism or Fundamentalism that originated around 1840 in England. It is no more representative of the total of Christianity or the early church than the Mormon faith or Christian Science. All of these are new religions that insist only they have the correct message from God. Interestingly, they are also religions that appeal to Americans and are often used to justify other American ideologies such as capitalism and imperialism.
Secondly, because I have pointed out to you many items in the scriptures that refute your basic premise, you incorrectly assume that I do not know Jesus Christ, that I have not sincerely looked into his word, that have not done any studying nor praying nor self-reflection. For you, apparently, the only way to “know” that some one is saved and lives a Christian life is that they understand as you understand, that they experience what you experience. I am sorry to tell you that this is not so. Your experience can never be measured by someone else’s. Nor can mine be measured by yours.
Thirdly, I am NOT your mediator. My words only cover my own experience and hopefully do not come between you and God. You are responsible for your own beliefs. You get to choose which parts of the Bible you agree with and which parts you interpret differently from anyone else. I cannot walk your path or live your life for you. I can only interact with God as God is revealed to me. You cannot interpose your faith upon me, that would deny God’s ability to work in my life without your help and would set you up as an equal of God.
However, you seem very sincere and I know what that is like because I spent a good deal of my life sincerely believing that as you do. I do understand what you are saying. I know the genuine concern for souls that you have and that you truly believe the most loving thing you can do for anyone is to bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ the Lord.
I have only one thing to say to you: if indeed you trust God for your salvation, you can trust God for the salvation of all. You have no right to limit God and God’s love. If you do not understand something or if it makes you uncomfortable, take it to God and leave it there. Do not assume that only you are God’s representative on earth. Elijah did that and God rebuked him. So put your money where your mouth is, trust God and let God work in other people’s lives the way God sees fit. I think Jesus talked a lot about that. It might be good to review his teachings.
None of the scriptures you addressed and quoted showed the least contradiction for anything I have said. My faith is as identical to the teachings of the Apostles (two were half brothers to Jesus) as can be ascertained. What you have embraced is a modern “moral relativism” which could never be pinned down. God would never leave His children hanging on a Truth that depended on the observer and situation. Jesus did say he would make us “fishers of men” and that we should teach his message to the world. You give yourself away when you refer to this country as an imperialist Nation. One of my friends has a disposition similar to yours. From what he tells me, he was from a very “legalistic”, salvation by works” type background. He too became bitter and hates God (because he says God doesn’t exist) I would say he is probably a lot better off, than one that changes the Truth to suit his own perception at any given moment. We are friends, however, and I respect what he has gone through.
Please let us all know to which tradition you belong so that we can also join into the “identical apostolic teachings.” You’d think that with things being as clear as you make them out to be, there wouldn’t be so many denominations….
Your hubris is staggering, dude. And what it really exposes is an equally staggering ignorance to the complexity and vibrance of the Christian faith. James was very patient with you. I am trying to follow his good example, but it’s really hard. It’s alright, man…. You’ll get it someday.
Adhere to the Word and the Spirit. Those are the Apostolic teachings. There is no “private interpretation”. May be a stumbling block for many of you. The demons of hell cannot touch the Word of God…but only the traditions of man can make it of non-effect.
Later “Dude”.
Denominations in the Church are a real shame……the Apostle Paul talked about division. All we need to know is “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. The reason for division is made clear on this thread. There are those that desire homosexual relations AND they want Gods blessing on that desire. So they start a “new” church. It’s been going on from the beginning very clear. Some do not desire to hear the playing of musical instruments so…. they ignore what scripture says and ban them. Some want to marry multiple wives so….they start a “new church”. Has nothing to do with interpretation but everything to do with the heart and it divides MANY ways. The human heart is complicated and very deceitful. That is why the Psalmist said, “know thyself”. Jesus said “if anyone would come after Me, let him take up his cross daily and follow me.” Many just do not want to do that.
If we are to believe that being gay is a choice then that has to mean that being heterosexual is a choice. I had struggled with the idea of sexuality being a choice or not until I considered my own orientation and I know that I did not choose to be heterosexual. I cannot control who I am attracted to and since I know I was born this way, that at no time in my life did I make a choice, then that has to be true for a person who is gay. So God made me this way, just as he made others differently. Scripture tells me that God knew me before I was knit together in my mothers womb, that I am fearfully and wonderfully made so therefore the same is true for a gay person. Are we who we are by deliberate creation or genetic toss of the dice? I do know that I need to treat all people the way I would like to be treated, with dignity, kindness and respect. I also know that laws should also treat people equally and fairly.
Being heterosexual defines the survival of the human race….even in the secular sense, it is the natural choice.
Chris,
I have generally found that apart from technicalities and disagreements on small theological points, Christian denominations tend to fall into one of two categories
A: The Inclusive, which believe that the Good News is that Christ died for all and thus with no actions of our own to merit salvation, we have all been saved from death and destruction. Therefore the grateful soul will look to honor God in gratitude by living a loving life model upon Christ’s. Salvation is not the focus of this tradition, it is one of many gifts from God through Christ.
B: The Exclusive, which believe that all of humanity is damned and so wicked that individuals can only be saved through specific actions. The salvation by works group thinks that the sum total of one’s life, including faith determines salvation. The salvation by grace group believes that one has to acknowledge sin, repent, utter a specific type of prayer, etc. etc. The Exclusive tradition holds that only a few will attain salvation and most of the world is doomed to hell. Individual denominations look for further ways to exclude people, narrowing down the population of the saved to people who agree with their particular interpretations.
The Exclusive tradition begins with the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, thus only being about 400 years old. Fundamentalism is a refinement of the Salvation By Grace theology that requires the faithful to accept the Bible as literally true and not symbolically true. Since the Bible has many synoptic problems (i.e. accounts differ), the Fundamentalist has to suspend reason in order to accept the Bible as Literal Truth. This enables someone like bdhstone to view science as an enemy of God, to assume that people choose their sexuality and that God views homosexuality as sin. The desperation engendered from holding contradictory beliefs is the source of the cognitive dissonance expressed so clearly by bdhstone. It manifests itself in a sense of persecution and combativeness cloaked as concern for the souls of others.
But in all reality, this is a life lived in fear. So as frustrating as someone like bdhstone can be in terms of rational discussion, it is important to remember that his life is a very difficult one. He has found a path to God that enables him to find meaning and hope and he is terribly afraid of losing that through opening himself to other ideas.
You forgot….
C. The Truth. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The penalty of sin is death but the gift of God is Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Believe in His plan and you will be saved. Out of your belief will come good works. You are saved by Grace and not that of yourselves so no one can boast it is a gift from God. Faith without works is dead. Christ said He will live in you and I believe it! Have seen it!
No one ever said you choose your desires at birth. At the same time who believes your desires at birth are righteous? There are some I am sure, that are born with eros love for everything that walks! All have sinned. We all have to overcome certain desires in our life. Christians learn that part of being “reborn” is to die to self. Moral relativity is in complete opposition to that. That is exactly why this talk of “synoptic problems” are used continually to discount the Word of God.
The miracle of God is that while we were His enemies, He loved us and presented us a plan to be redeemed. Another miracle is that His Word (Jesus) has not been completely annihilated by enemies of God,
No one has ever said your version of what God has proclaimed does not exist….it does. Just don’t call it Christian.
Sorry, but you only have your own version of the truth. There are many ways to interpret the scriptures you cite here. Your ways are new ways. You have no exclusive deal on salvation and the name Christian. Please stop acting as if you do. A bit of humility on your part might go a long way in defusing the combative and arrogant approach you take to God’s word. Even so, I do wish you well and hope that your beliefs bring you some peace.
I stand judged by you. I have posted mostly the words out of scripture and you want to convince those less read they are my interpretation? A new interpretation? Words have meaning. Progressives can not change the meaning at their own elitist will! That is why the Word was taken from the Priests and given to everyone to read. There is a very large consensus of Believers that believe what it says! See the non-elite types know that 2+2 always =4. There maybe apples and oranges involved but it always =4. You however, paint it that you are all knowing and have a different answer. That’s o.k.
You’re clueless. That is not the truth. That is what you believe. Truth is provable fact. The Bible is neither factual nor proven. Who made you the authority on what is Christian anyway? What Jesus said and believed is not anywhere close to what most Christian religions today teach and believe. Your version of Christianity is certainly not. I’m PROUD to not call my faith Christian, mostly because of people like you. Most fundamentalists would be downright shocked to know the real word of Jesus and that their judgmental (and misplaced) sense of moral superiority is exactly what Jesus was fighting against in His numerous run-ins with the Sadducees.
I suggest you read the book “What Jesus Meant” before you continue telling people that what YOU think He meant is the factual truth. Based on original Greek text of the Gospels, it gives a new (in fact, the original) meaning to Jesus’ message, which is nothing like Christianity today. What you are preaching here is not the message of Jesus. It is the church of Paul, who never met Jesus and had no idea what Jesus said or meant, and evidence points to the probability that Paul was actually never converted but was a Roman insider who distributed all his letters to soften Christianity and make it seem more palatable to the citizens of the Roman Empire after Constantine forced Christianity on them.
Just because you are offended does not make you correct.
Things were written before any fundamentalist or evangelical conspiracy ever took place and are at the foundation of every Believer are:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Salvation has never been all inclusive. It was never the plan, however it is Gods hope that none will perish. He loved us so much, He created us free agents…..free to choose.
Why do we always seem to miss the point and the commandment of Jesus to love everyone as he did? Again, as I stated earlier, Jesus doesn’t need us to be his policemen. You cannot lead others to Christ by condemnation and judgement. People don’t need their sin pointed out. You know when you are doing something wrong.
And just for the record, no I do not think homosexuality is a sin. I agree with what Barbara previously said, not to mention that the word using in the Bible in the typically quoted passages had a different meaning for homosexuality than we ascribe to it today. Look it up. But regardless, even if my way of thinking is “wrong” wouldn’t you rather err on the side of showing too much love and being too accepting rather than being judgmental and legalistic (which Jesus loathed)?
It would be fair for me to ask why do those who purport to be Christian claim the Bible is a fallacy and Paul was a Roman Puppet? Then how do you know Jesus? Why do those that speak out that sin should not be condoned or glorified among believers are characterized as judgemental? Now here’s a question I really would like answered….when Jesus stated “go your way and sin no more” was He being judgemental? Remember Jesus also said He did not come to judge.. Or was He showing an act of love!
Canada, This site was declared a “homosexual” site by it’s author a couple threads back. Can that be embraced and at the same time be a purporter of the Gospel? I can show you where the scripture says Believers are to have nothing to do with believers who “practice” sin. Now there is a big difference between a believer that slips and falls into sin when tempted and one that practices sin in his pride. That is what we have here.
I agree with you to the point that the lost do not need their sin pointed out to them, they just need to learn the love of Jesus!
Have looked it up and shown it here.
Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 08:44:49 +0000
To: nancymize@hotmail.com
bdhstone, I think the most interesting thing about your continued comments is that you do not learn from the other comments made to you. You cannot seem to find ways to to acknowledge any valid point but your own. I am not sure if you know the full history behind your interpretation of the Bible, but it is a fairly recent one, yet you act as if it is the ancient interpretation of scripture. I get the sense that you are less interested in discovering truth than you are in being proved true in your own conceits. To some degree we all can be like that. I am very happy with my beliefs and honestly believe that they are a valid reflection of the truth of the Gospel. I can allow that you believe differently and your beliefs have made a difference in your life. But just as I do not ask you to embrace my understanding (out of the idea that it may not be how God needs to work in your life and with the full understanding that my beliefs may be inconsistent or in error, but chosen trusting God to reveal truth to me), I ask you why it is so important for you to demand that of others regarding your own beliefs. My sense – and it may be wrong – is that you are actually quite afraid you have mischosen your beliefs and you need everyone else to approve them.
James, I too find your comments very interesting. When I first found Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, (35 years ago,) I asked some friends to take me to their Church. Surprisedly they told me they didn’t think I was ready for Church and that I should study the Word for a time first. That I did. So if my interpretation is a fairly recent one…..I don’t know what you are talking about. When I read Foxes Book of martyrs, I believe that men and women, and the disciples gave their lives for something unchanging. Mankind has no more wisdom today than he did 2000 plus years ago. We are no more civilized other than the fact the gospel of Jesus Christ has revolutionized the world,
I will contend that the Word has not changed and I do my best to adhere to the entire Word. If I have a lack of understanding in one area…. I look to find the answer in the entire continuity of scripture. That is….Genesis through Revelation. From the beginning there have been those that gather “teachers to tickle their ears”.. The have been with us from the beginning. Scripture warns of that. Moral Relativity is a great temptation to mankind. That is when everyone “follows what is right in their own eyes”. I have met many thousands of Christians nationwide that hold the whole unchanged Word to be true. Our unison can only be explained by the power of the Holy Spirit. We span many denominations and backgrounds.
Love is above all things. We must first come to an understanding of what that is. We are all under the curse of sin, that is, until we understand and accept what God has done to reconcile us. Even then, we fall into sin from time to time.However, those that follow Jesus do not choose to WALK in sin. If they do, the apostle John said they “deceive themselves”. Now the author of this thread has admitted the acts of a homosexual lifestyle is sin. Not one sin is an more evil than another. Yes we all sin…..but by teaching in the name of Christ to walk in that sin is acceptable to a life in Christ…. that is a teaching that will keep prisoners in bondage and it has to be addressed. That is all I have done. I would much rather just advocate “seek you 1st the Kingdom of God, then all these things will be added to you”!
Let’s be honest with each other. I have heard it said that the writings of Paul are those of a Roman Puppet. That could easily be refuted, but instead let’s look at the man….John the Baptist.
John was described as a “voice crying in the wilderness preparing the Way for the coming of the lamb of God that will take away the sins of the world.” This account was testified to by the Apostle John (not yet accused on this blog of being a Roman puppet.) Apostle John had a lot to say about the mission of John the Baptist and attested to his character
Fast forward to the death of John the Baptist. Matthew wrote the account. Matthew has not yet been discounted as a Roman puppet so he has not yet been discredited. Why did John the B .have his head cut off? According to Matthew, John was imprisoned by Herod the tetrarch because John confronted Herrod with the “sexual sin” of sleeping with his brothers wife. Now Herod was a pretender in following Jewish law in order to keep peace and order within that community.Like so many he was “Godlike in form but denied the power thereof”. Being confronted with a sin he “owned” Herod had John the Baptist beheaded to silence that witness.
A question I have for James and others that accuse me of having a “New interpretation” of scripture…. Should John the Baptist have “lightened up” and stayed silent on the issue of sexual sin to a man that was a purported believer? Was John being narrow minded in his “private interpretation” as to what the scripture said? Didn’t Herod have a right to his own interpretation to scripture?
Unless you have a reason to refute these accounts of scripture, I see a parallel in your accusations of me having a “tainted new doctrine” and Herods wish to silence John the Baptist. It is not my desire to be “right”, but only to overcome the “traditions of men” with the “Word of God” that was given to us by God so that men and women everywhere could be free from the bondage to sin!
I feel deeply wronged by all of this focusing on sexuality in the news, not even just the homosexuality, but yes, that is part of it. Here’s why:
I took a friend in who had to have surgery. She signed a HIPAA release so that I could come in and sit with her in the recovery room while she was waking up because of a previous traumatic experience that no one wanted repeated. This was fine with the surgeon–he had signed off on it, but it clearly wasn’t fine with his staff, because they kept asking if I was her partner (no; I was a happily married mother of two, and I was her friend and neighbor from down the street). Those jerks “lost” her HIPAA release, refused to tell the surgeon I was there, refused to give me any updates… BECAUSE I wasn’t her lesbian partner. She wasn’t a lesbian; and I wasn’t, either; and it got in the way of her medical care in this really significant way.
They tied her down in the recovery room, badly dislocated her jaw (she later had to have jaw surgery), totally ignored her list of allergies, used stuff on the surgical site that caused a serious reaction, and–then they wanted me to sign the release taking responsibility for her care and take her home! I was pretty angry and upset by that point–and I didn’t even know about the bad reaction at that point.
But she couldn’t stay there. We wound up in the E.R. later that afternoon, spent the evening there, and the ER doc refused to treat, even refused to look at the surgery site, because ER docs really, really despise picking up the pieces after surgery docs. She’s lucky she survived until the home care nurse came the next day and realized what she’d been treated with and addressed her bad reaction. I was so scared for her!
It was a MESS, and it could all have been avoided if that HIPAA release had been “good enough” simply because we were friends and not lesbian partners.
That is the world all of this has led to. That is precisely the kind of world I wholeheartedly object to! But somehow, no one notices these things are happening, nor do they at all care–
I tried to be a good neighbor. I want the rest of my world to be a good neighbor in return. Trumpeting sexuality all over television and the internet is NOT being a good neighbor. It results in life-threatening stuff like this through reverse discrimination. We need to stop hyper-focusing on our privates and everyone else’s privates, make our private lives PRIVATE again, stop insisting that others validate our decisions in the bedroom, stop insisting that if people aren’t homosexual, then they can’t be friends or have any responsibility for each other, and oh, yes, please, SHUT the door on all that!
What’s wrong with straight people flaunting their sexuality? Homosexuals can flaunt theirs and get flags waved and a standing ovation. The reason why people grow up now knowing that to be Homosexual is different is because we treat them differently. Be it a good way or a bad way.
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