…. Please consider a few things.
Q: Know what happens when fewer women have access to birth control? A: The number of unwanted pregnancies goes up. And guess what happens when there are more unwanted pregnancies…. You guessed it–More abortions. So there’s something to think about….
“The court, I fear, has ventured into a minefield.” ~ Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
You know what? The family who runs Hobby Lobby is probably really nice. I’ve never met them, but I’d be willing to bet that if my wife and I ate dinner at their house, at the end of the night we’d would walk out the giant front door, get our minivan from the valet, and while we were driving home we’d talk about what nice people they were (right after we’d gotten done talking about how ridiculously huge their house was). And you know what? The same is probably true for most of the people who are defending and celebrating today’s SCOTUS decision–If you ate at their house, you would probably like them…. As long as the conversation stayed away from politics, that is.
I have been to Hobby Lobby. The only thing in the store I had any interest in was the candy by the checkout lane. It is aisle after aisle of crap….
On that same note, David Green (Hobby Lobby’s founder and CEO) gives away A LOT of money–Almost half of Hobby Lobby’s profits, by some estimations. He gave $10 million to Liberty University and $70 million to Oral Roberts University. You may not think too highly of these colleges and the message they are trying to spread in the world, but here’s the thing: A lot of people DO think highly of them. And even though these people have a drastically different idea than I do of what it means to be “Christian,” I believe they are crazy about Jesus. And they are doing the best with the information they have. Not only that, but Hobby Lobby pays their full time employees at least $14/hour (with benefits), and their part time people get a minimum of $9.50. It may not be enough to live on, but it IS above average. That’s a something, I guess….
Regardless of how well-meaning the Green family is, there really is a whole lot to be critical of in this situation. Hobby Lobby claimed that they brought this lawsuit because being forced to cover birth control–specifically PlanB (the “morning after pill”) and IUD’s–forces them to go against a deep religious conviction. However, their company-sponsored 401(k) invests in many companies that make a very good profit by making IUD’s and PlanB (you can read all about those HERE). This has all the integrity and sense of throwing a Beer-Fest as a fundraiser for Alcoholics Anonymous…. Not only that, but Hobby Lobby’s insurance covered PlanB for years, but they only took it off the plan after ObamaCare mandated its coverage. Leading one (this one, at least) to believe that this lawsuit was more about politics than it was about religious conviction.
“Aw man, today’s prison activity is Arts & Crafts AGAIN?!? Are we EVER going to get to go swimming?”
In addition to this glaring piece of hypocrisy, Hobby Lobby gets most of its dirt-cheap inventory from China. They won’t sell shot glasses at their stores (because drinking is bad), but they will sell crappy trinkets made by people who are paid next-to-nothing and forced into horrific workplace conditions. And doing business with China pumps money into a country that that actively fights AGAINST religious freedom while forcing many of its women to have abortions. Again, this has all the integrity and sense of throwing a gala to raise money to fight slavery while buying all the discount party decorations from a country whose economy relies on slave labor. The way that Hobby Lobby makes their profits really is gross, and if they are going to play the whole “We’re a Christian Company” card, the Church should be the first ones calling them on their BS.
I’ve decided that because of my religious convictions about war, I won’t be paying that portion of my taxes anymore. What’s that? It doesn’t work that way? Oh….
But it’s not. Much of the Church is celebrating what it thinks is a win for “religious liberty.” Well, this isn’t a win for religious liberty. It’s a win for corporations. This is the same Supreme Court that ruled in favor of corporations giving as much money as they wanted to political candidates and SuperPACs because they called it “free speech.” Now, they are paving a legal path to allow for-profit corporations to deny healthcare coverage to it’s employees because of “religious convictions.” Maybe a company doesn’t think women should be having sex out of wedlock, and they don’t think they should have to cover the costs of a bastard pregnancy. Maybe the company owners are religiously opposed to vaccines. There are all kinds of scenarios where business owners with religions other than Christianity might be able to refuse paying for care of procedures it says go against the owner’s “religious convictions.”
Great, now my wife is going to have to shop at Michael’s for all the crap we don’t need or have room for.
If you’re like me, you probably see all of this happening and it makes you feel powerless. And now, everyone is fighting with each other on social media again, and more and more people just get more cynical and withdrawn, and our country has yet another reason to be even more divided…. But here’s what I think: This Supreme Court decision is not a defeat. It is a reminder. It is a reminder that our votes matter. All five of the republican-appointed justices voted in favor of this decision, and all of the democratic-appointed justices voted against it. There are all kinds of good reasons to be a republican, but this group of five conservative justices are so pro-business rights that they don’t seem to care that is hurting our HUMAN rights. If a for-profit company is religiously opposed to homosexuality, can they choose to not offer benefits to same-sex partners in states that have decided their marriages just as valid?
We cannot let disappointments like this one make us cynical. This Hobby Lobby decision is not about right vs. left. The fight is not between right and left or republican and democrat…. The fight has always been between the ones who are being oppressed and the ones who have their foot on our necks. Republicans and democrats alike should be alarmed at the possible scope of a decision like this one. Tea Party groups have figured out that if they mobilize a relatively small group of people during primaries, they can manage to get some of their candidates elected–folks with extreme ideologies–BUSINESS RIGHTS OVER HUMAN RIGHTS. But WE are the ones who make the rules of how things work. We can either keep making rules that allow the business owners to amass incredible wealth (while using that wealth to pass legislation making themselves even more wealthy), or we can make rules that focus on Workers Rights–Rules that don’t just enrich a few on the backs of the many.
I think I’ve got a solution: Go to Hobby Lobby, buy a bunch of yarn, and crochet your own condoms. As far as I know, a man has never gotten a woman pregnant while wearing a crocheted condom…. Then there’ll be no need for birth control!
So here’s what you need to do: VOTE! Do not let this sort of awfulness convince you that nothing can be done. That is exactly the sort of thing the people with all the power WANT us to think. There is a midterm election coming up in just a few short months. If we let a bunch of crazy people get elected who are hell-bent on bringing any government process to a halt, it’s going to get harder and harder to fix this stuff. I believe that there is something spiritual and Godly about working together to end oppression in all its forms, and economic oppression is a very real thing. The government is NOT the answer to all our problems, but sometimes there are governmental systems that need to be changed in order to make justice possible. Before we can get back to working out the subtle differences between political right and left, we have to recognize and repair a system that led to the greatest economic inequality this nation has ever seen. Oh please vote…. Things are not hopeless!
The Boeskool 
Unfollowing you right now. Waste of time reading such awful stuff.
“I don’t like what you have to say, but instead of providing my own counterpoints or simply avoiding your website altogether, I’ll instead go out of my way to tell you that I will no longer visit your website.”
You will be missed, Jennifer. Though I don’t know you, I will try my best to go on writing, even if you are no longer reading. And I will try to uphold the high standards that made you start to follow my blog, while leaving behind the “awful stuff” that made you leave…. Though, I don’t really know what those things are. Mostly because instead of engaging in a conversation or (gasp) asking questions, you just wrote what you wrote.
If you’re still around, I’d love to know what made you start reading, and what offended you so much that you felt the need to write “Waste of time reading such awful stuff.”
But you might be gone already. Either way, I will muddle along without you, daily tipping a virtual 40 oz. on a virtual curb in memory of my fallen blog-following homies….
Best response to a hater I’ve seen in a long time. Kudos
Really? Calling people names is the first step to dehumanizing them. It’s too easy.
Brillant!
I agree with Jennifer. But the fact with you and politics is that give us our own argument, then shut it down with your own twisted illogical argument. Your a politician writing about politics. The point of writing about politics is to write without bias. If your not, your’e basically giving your bias opinion which has now clearly offended some people. Correction- A lot of people.
Great response! Love it!
The point of writing about politics is to write without bias.
Who told you this nonsense?
Someone who never taught mrbaseballnerd the difference between your and you’re is my guess, evilsoup.
Wow! I guess you’re really going to flip out when you learn the Earth isn’t six thousand years old.
Beautifully articulated, Boeskool. You are exactly right about all of this. Everyone, please vote and get these bozos out of office!
Thanks Kath!
What you’ve written is SO true on many levels–especially about HL selling stuff that mostly comes from China. I don’t think most people realize how oppressive China is and how supporting products made there is promoting slave labor. Thirty-One is a “Christian” company that does exactly the same thing (all products produced in China). Thank you for bringing light to this subject and prodding people to dig deeper to think.
It is my pleasure, Catherine. Thanks for reading and taking the time to comment.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE the way you say it. It’s in my head but you put it into the best words. Thanks and keep it up!
That makes me feel really good, Mikki. You have permission to leave those kinds of comments whenever you want. 🙂
you are correct that its a win for corporations and not personal religious freedoms (whatever you choose) and it really irks me that people think the Plan B pill is an abortion pill and that H.L chose the IUD as one that wouldnt support knowing its one of the most effective forms of BC but also the most expensive.
I guess the people who are upset about this piece are upset with logic and facts? They can not argue with the facts, so they continue using their emotions to direct their lives and shore up their belief systems.
I’m with you Jennifer and Stoot! Chris, you said nice things about those people and were gracious in your disagreement with them, how dare you? You had facts and made logical points regarding behaviors that do not showcase a consistent set of beliefs or morals. You also gave them credit for their philanthropy and awareness of a needed living wage. This is the kind of considerate, well researched and open minded behavior we will not tolerate – and it isn’t Christian. Obama sucks.
Really though, this is how I stay optimistic. The GOP knows how to bring out folks to midterms for sure. With gerrymandering, not having voting days off work and constant attacks on voting laws, a lot of good folks are taking up arms to combat the abuse to fair voting in this country. This fight is just beginning and will get much stronger in the near future. At the same time, simple geo/demo changes in the voting population are already starting to show them how difficult it is getting to win the presidency. Presidents appoint judges and other major appointments. This is why we have so many shitty ones right now…years of republican presidents appointing them.
If the GOP continues to move farther to the end of their crazy pole, they will lose more moderate voters too. There is only one way for the GOP to start winning major elections in the future. Find level headed “thinkers” who can compromise, and can disagree while also giving praise (just like you did above). Have you seen any of these on television lately?
“Moderate” is a four letter word these days, Chad.
well said, Chad
“Crazy pole.” Awesome. Oh, and well done on being able to express your views clearly and articulately – an increasingly lost art.
I just don’t understand why it’s okay for the extreme right to impose their personal beliefs on others. Freedom of speech and religion is a two way street.
Because God, Ken…. Because God.
Well the GodI know and the God they claim to know must be two different entities. I know a God of love, I’m so confused.
I’m relatively new to the site. Thoroughly enjoy the way you bring new light on Biblical situations and on our foibles as Christians. It is regrettable that the Hobby Lobby decision is so political. I’ve never been in one of their stores but only because I don’t need the kind of “stuff” I would expect to find in there. I participate in North Carolina’s Moral Mondays about the sea change in the State over the past few years on issues such as voting suppression, Medicaid cutbacks, and diminution of public education. It’s embarrassing, and the one area I’m going into overdrive on is voter registration this summer/fall. (Also trying to start new Disciple of Christ churches in “spare” time),
Keep up the good work !!
Keep up the good work, Bob!
One of my favorite articles by far. keep fighting the fight!! VOTE! (And that blurb on the first comment, love the song addition!)
Thank you for the reminder that these are people we are talking about not policies. Voting is integral to our nations makeup and I look to the hope that more people will be thinking about Christianity through this process.
If I sponsored a debate team, I would nominate you to be captain.
What is the salary for debate team captains these days?
Great points! What really gets me is that Hobby Lobby is still covering Viagra. Love the crocheted condoms pic!
They’re surprisingly uncomfortable….
There needs to be a like button for comments on WP.
Ha, thanks!
Oh look. Here’s an empty chair, still warm when Jennifer departed. Think I’ll settle in for a bit since I like what I read, so far.
Don’t get too comfy, Maggie…. Before too long, I’ll probably offend you as well. 🙂
RIP Jenfer
I agree with Jennifer. But the fact with you and politics is that give us our own argument, then shut it down with your own twisted illogical argument. Your a politician writing about politics. The point of writing about politics is to write without bias. If your not, your’e basically giving your bias opinion which has now clearly offended some people. Correction- A lot of people.
Jennifer left on the last bus, I think you missed it.
I’m not following you for some reason, Mr. Baseball Nerd. I’m definitely not a politician, and it’s definitely not my intent to offend. We all certainly have biases…. I don’t get it. Which part of my argument is twisted or illogical?
I agree with your point of view, however, there is a distinction to be made. IUDs and morning after pills are methods of birth control that technically take place after sperm meets egg. That makes them abortions in the hearts of some. Hobby crappy will still cover birth control that is pre-conception.
IUDs:
“Both types of IUD prevent fertilization of the egg by damaging or killing sperm. The IUD also affects the uterine lining (where a fertilized egg would implant and grow).
Hormonal IUD. This IUD prevents fertilization by damaging or killing sperm and making the mucus in the cervix thick and sticky, so sperm can’t get through to the uterus. It also keeps the lining of the uterus (endometrium) from growing very thick. This makes the lining a poor place for a fertilized egg to implant and grow. The hormones in this IUD also reduce menstrual bleeding and cramping.
Copper IUD. Copper is toxic to sperm. It makes the uterus and fallopian tubes produce fluid that kills sperm. This fluid contains white blood cells, copper ions, enzymes, and prostaglandins.”
So, the chance is very slim that anything happens “after sperm meets egg,” the uterine lining being so thin is pretty much a backup plan in case the sperm somehow manages to get through, but that’s not its main purpose.
Plan B:
“Depending upon where you are in your cycle, Plan B One-Step may work in one of these ways:
It may prevent or delay ovulation.
It may interfere with fertilization of an egg.
It is also possible that this type of emergency birth control prevents implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus by altering its lining.
Plan B One-Step is not the same as RU-486, which is an abortion pill. It does not cause a miscarriage or abortion. In other words, it does not stop development of a fetus once the fertilized egg implants in the uterus. So it will not work if you are already pregnant when you take it.”
Almost the same thing, but not quite. I think you get where I’m going here.
Thanks for helping educate about these forms of contraception. So much misinformation out there.
I can’t even count how many friends I’ve lost because I’m always the one correcting false information. You’d think people would rather know the truth than believe a lie, but you’d be wrong. Hah. =]
Thank you so much for this information, Tempest.
Thank YOU for writing a coherent, informative post=]
Actually, Plan B and Ella prevent fertilization. They do not happen after sperm meets egg. They prevent ovulation. The IUD, particularly copper IUD’s kill sperm. These are not abortifacients like RU-486.
Good post! Thank you!
You might like the two I made about Hobby Lobby. Both are linked in this one: http://andrewpegoda.com/2014/07/01/the-inherent-contradiction-between-the-constitution-and-democracy-more-on-the-hobby-lobby-decision/
Thanks for sharing, Andrew!
Congratulations on being Freshly Pressed.
Thanks!
Very interesting piece. I’ve read quite a few articles and comments today that have twisted the issue, but for me this has always been an issue of whether corporations should be afforded religious rights, particularly to the detriment of their employees. All in all, this was well said.
You make some excellent points with regard to the hypocrisy present (or rather, conveniently hidden but not impossible to find) concerning this issue. I find it interesting that people will latch on to the highly publicised piece of the puzzle but be completely ignorant to the overall picture.
Congrats on being Freshly Pressed!
I scrolled through the comments and had no idea they would be so entertaining.
It doesn’t matter what I believe, I commend you for openly sharing your opinion. We have free speech in America and we are beyond lucky for that. Free speech doesn’t mean people can only speak out if they share you beliefs. Anyone can share their opinions. And should be able to. The Jennifers of the world would never say something like that if they realized what it is like to not have free speech.
It’s possible to disagree with someone and still be kind. In fact, it can often start important dialogues. Say what you mean but don’t say it mean.
You seem surprisingly sane, anolivedaily. Also, I like “Say what you mean but don’t say it mean.” Well done.
“Know what happens when fewer women have access to birth control? ” Tell me…exactly who is denying anyone from buying their own contraceptives? I suppose in your own pathetic little mind I should be forced to buy it for you? You might want to do some serious research and look at who originally supported the RSFRA back in 1992. The law signed by Bill Clinton, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yea, it was supported almost unanimously by Democrats. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about no more than any of the other Democrats bitching about the law. The Supreme Court is taking a stand against the illegal acts of Executive Orders that Obama keeps signing and it’s beginning to catch up with him. Now stop spreading lies telling women they are being denied access to birth control. The Department of Health and Human Services has already taken unilateral executive action to ensure that women employed by religious nonprofits get contraception coverage in cases where the employer declines to pay. There are 20 approved FDA contraceptives and Hobby Lobby provides -provides 16 of them. The four that they didn’t want to have to provide because of their religious beliefs were those contraceptives that killed a human embryo, i.e., caused an abortion. No one is denying women of anything except the truth.
First, read above–these four contraceptives do not cause abortions. They prevent fertilization. Second, you aren’t buying the contraceptives for anyone. The employee works for and earns that benefit as a form of compensation. Third, the ACA was not an illegal act or and executive order. Fourth, SCOTUS was very clear in their ruling that HL or other closely held corporations do not have to offer any contraceptives (not just the four that HL currently doesn’t offer). Fifth, why bother with the insults?
First of all, J, I don’t want you to buy me any contraceptives–I’ve had the surgery. I chronicled the whole experience here: https://theboeskool.com/2012/01/08/vasectomies-jock-straps-and-concepcion/ It’s funny. You should read it. There’s a second part after the surgery as well….
Secondly, there are some women for whom the pill is neither effective or safe. IUDs don’t cause abortions, but for some women, they are the only safe/reasonable option. If IUDs aren’t covered, paying for them out of pocket might cost a month’s wages or more. So then they don’t get an IUD, they get pregnant, they need assistance with child care (which I bet you’re WILD about), or she decides to have an abortion. Does this sound like a good plan to you?
Thirdly, “pathetic little mind?” Really? I just learned this new saying. It goes like this: “Say what you mean, but don’t say it mean.”
Hmmm, I’m assuming you are a male, oh wait, I get it, you are a republican male….wait, you are a republican male that owns a business or is head of a corporation, am I getting closer?
I have seen this “argument” posted ALL OVER the internet. Anywhere people are discussing their individual loss of religious freedom to their friggin EMPLOYER….I see the SAME “argument” you posted over and over. Now I know what Fox News is spewing. I am weary of explaining it all to the wall of unreason…so I will encourage you to really focus on what ohyesjulesdid post.
I, for the life of me cannot fathom why more people aren’t upset that SCOTS has given a green light for any corporation “closely held” (for now…) to snub the law because they have “strong convictions” otherwise. Except for taxes, those they must pay if they cannot find a loophole. The wide-variety of Christian…hell, any faith out there has given light for anyone to take heed and impose their views on us….and this goes FAR beyond Birth Control.
For example, there are Christian Dominionists who believe, wholeheartedly, that Gawd made the Earth and all on it for MAN to do as man pleases. It does not matter if man destroys the Earth for his gain, for GAWD will rescue him from it and/or recreate it anew for him to exploit. Now those pesky environmental laws can possibly be brushed aside…water pollution? People can just go BUY bottled water. AIR pollution? People can just close their windows, or wear face masks. Ground pollution? Just plow it under… My head has been exploding with the unlimited possibilities this ruling has potentially unleashed.
I do vote. I vote in every election and primary I can. But this mess….I am glad someone has optimism…but I am having a hard time finding the light at the end of the tunnel for this.
This is the best piece I’ve read about this whole mess – love it!
It really is a mess, isn’t it….
Nailed it right on the head. This ruling is an affirmation that the US government value the rights of businesses over human rights. Not only this but the separation of church and state is clearly being swept under a rug here.
Yup.
What a lot of people don’t realize is that the separation of church and state protects the church as much as the state.
True. But the Establishment Clause was written so a Church, or religious belief could not be foisted upon an individual, nor could the state favor one religion over another. We’ll see if the 2nd half holds up with other faiths insisting exemption to law because of “sincerely held beliefs”….with facts staying completely out of sight, of course.
Reblogged this on kylenshelper and commented:
It’s their own right. It’s a privately owned company. I do not believe a company should be made to change a health policy based on society. It is soley wrong for them to do so because of their religious beliefs.
-Sincerely Kyelan
Kyelan–Do you think that private companies should be able to have a policy of only paying African Americans 3/5ths of the salary of their white counterparts? Should companies be allowed to refuse healthcare to their workers who have been divorced? Because it’s sinful? Should they be allowed to refuse coverage of pregnancies if the woman gets pregnant out of wedlock?
I don’t think you’ve thought this whole thing through….
Plenty of hard-core Baptists and Mormons out there…can a company closely-held by one of these refuse alcohol/substance abuse treatment because they’re against drinking of any kind?
What is next? An employer dictating HOW you spend your paycheck because it goes against their beliefs?
I’ve thought this through. Although I haven’t been on here in a while. But from what I’ve skimmed through, Hobby lobby is their own privately owned company, they have the right to make any regulations and rules and healthcare benefits to all employees, they can’t make exceptions to one employee just because they have a different issue. But the employee has a right to do whatever necessary to get what they need for their own care rights.
I have no idea whether Chris will be responding, but I’m curious…
“the right to make any regulations and rules and healthcare benefits to all employees”
Does this mean you’ve changed your mind and now agree with Chris?
“But the employee has a right to do whatever necessary to get what they need for their own care rights.”
What can be necessary? What are their rights? I usually associate “whatever necessary” with some kind of violence, which doesn’t fit here. (Healthcare Wars… Dun dun dun.)
I wrote a post about the SCOTUS decision today as well, and I found myself feeling utterly defeated and invalidated (I even titled it, “Lord, I’m discouraged” lol). It was really nice to read your post, with it’s subtle optimism and direction. Thanks!
Man, that’s awesome, Natasha…. I get discouraged a lot too. That’s why people need each other–when one of us gets discouraged, someone else is there to slap that person on the ass…. spiritually speaking.
Haha, well said 🙂
They aren’t denying healthcare coverage, they simply aren’t paying for that one item. Like when you get your hard-to-decipher explanation of benefits, that one item on the receipt would require you to pay the balance. There’s a difference.
Dreamer, what you’re overlooking is the concept of case law, which holds that the logic supporting the ruling in one case is binding as a basis for deciding others. This case determined the religious beliefs of a handful of corporate owners supersedes a law, passed by Congress and signed by the President, that broadly defined employee health coverage standards for every business in the United States. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Hobby Lobby’s particular objections, or with the particular legitimacy or views of this Congress or President, what is truly disconcerting here is that 1) corporate religious beliefs just trumped both the employee’s individual religious beliefs as well as the public interest of providing a common standard for health coverage, 2) this logic, whether intended to be limited in scope or not, put the court in the position of picking winners as to what particular religious beliefs may supersede law through subjective criterion such as what constitutes a “closely held private company” and a “deeply felt religious conviction,” and 3) there can be no such thing as a narrow impact with a ruling on such an issue. In fact, the Supreme Court has already issued orders to lower courts to review every case where religious owners were compelled to cover any type of birth control for their employees, not just “that one item” as you mentioned. Beyond that is the troubling problem that the same drugs branded simplistically here as “birth control” in the public parliance, are in fact the main tools for addressing womens’ general reproductive and limbic system health needs, including everything from menstrually aggravated cysts to basic physiological, psychological preventative and general health post-menopause. In summary, this case as a precedent, provides any employer with an inconvenient or controversial axe to grind leverage against really any public health or safety issue they disagree with. Ultimately, entering into public commerce for profit is no longer sufficient reason for the government to enforce safeguards for employees: the court just granted protections and exemptions to a major corporation from sharing in the burden of the public good, one formerly extended only and narrowly to non-profit religious organizations, over the interest of the general public.
What Ken said….
Reblogged this on ohyesjulesdid and commented:
This guy has got it right–our votes matter. Vote in the midterm elections!
Thank you for advocating for voting in the mid-term election. You are right that when the voice of We, the People starts to get lost in the fray, it is up to us to band together and speak even louder with our votes.
If we could just work together to get the crazies out, that would be a something.
Thanks so much for this. And for drawing out some entertaining comments! It’s great to see a Freshly Pressed post call on Americans to vote! I fear that things may get worse before they get better, and that we may not be able to reverse some of the damage (think climate change) but we must keep trying. Congrats on the FP.
Thanks! It’s an honor.
Hi, there,
Great piece. You may be interested in this site: https://mayday.us/. Professor Lessig is a good guy.
Eva
nice work.
While I agree with the decision in favor of Hobby Lobby, this is the first argument I actually enjoyed reading. I \ love to hear a well thought out, intelligent opinion, even if *gasp* its different from my own. What happened to intelligent, respectful debate? We don’t all have to agree, actually its damn near impossible.
Reblogged this on samiahdotco and commented:
n9ce on
Wonderful article!!
I love that you presented both sides of the argument, provided well researched evidence, and was able to respectfully disagree. I hope that more people will see this as an issue of the rights of business vs individuals rather than just purely a “religious freedom” one. Thank you!
I greatly appreciate your acknowledgement of the humanity behind the views you disagree with. Keep doing that. 🙂
As a conservative (well, it’s complicated), I think we got left behind at “funding everyone’s healthcare,” so anything associated with that is a target.
Medicaid+Medicare was hard enough to swallow, but I think it was generally accepted, if eagerly trimmed. Obamacare is a totally different story. Forget trimming; we want the roots burned.
I haven’t fact-checked the Greens’ actions, but I agree that they seem dishonest – and petty, and more like a one-finger salute to the AFA than anything resembling progress against it.
But I am a little perplexed by the whole “corporate power” argument. As a libertarian, I don’t like corporations any more than I like government. But the AFA represents a whole lot of ground lost by corporations, as you frame it, and this seems like a tiny shift in the other direction. Yet the left seems as outraged about this issue as I still am about Obamacare.
I think y’all should get a collective grip. However, your skill in writing and diplomacy just won you another follower.
Perhaps the US can take a leaf out of Europe’s book: national health services which are universal. No matter how poor you are, you can still receive healthcare, without paying hefty insurance premiums, and employers don’t have to fork out for healthcare to cover their employees.
Then we wouldn’t even be having these debates.
Congrats on being Freshly Pressed!
Reblogged this on Mel's Musings (aka bersain1) and commented:
This guy says it better than I ever could…
So here’s what you need to do: VOTE!
Ah, but voting alone isn’t enough — it’s an important part of the process, sure, but it isn’t the be-all and end-all of democracy. If you really believe in something — if you really care about what happens in the world — you should campaign for what you believe in. Of course, unfortunately, many people don’t have the time to go door-to-door for their cause, but that’s one of the ways in which Capitalism is incompatible with democracy.
Also, the very idea of a Christian Corporation is hilarious. That line about the camel and the eye of the needle comes to mind…
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I wish there was a “Loved it!” button instead of just a “Like” button for this one.
I think one of my first thoughts on the whole thing was if companies are allowed to make rules based on their religious beliefs then what is to stop them from not hiring people from other religions, not granting marriage rights to legally married same-sex couples for insurance or pensions, or maybe making rules specifically to ensure members of certain religions don’t work in their stores i.e. not allowing employees to wear burqas or yarmulkes. It’s a very dangerous trend to start.
The SCOTUS made it clear that this is a moot point. There should be no right of entitlement to force people of conscience to pay for immoral products and procedures.
So then if the company was run by Jehovah’s Witnesses they then would not have to pay for organ transplants and blood transfusions for their employers. Good to know.
What if I’m a business owner and I consider vaccines immoral? Should I be allowed to not cover those? What if I think that interracial marriage is immoral, and my conscience tells me not to recognize my employee’s spouse as someone I want to cover on my company’s health insurance?
I have a moral objection to war, but somehow my taxes keep paying for that.
Reblogged this on 9jacheckout's Blog.
Reblogged this on chimaasawalam and commented:
is dat all it is
So we who have conscience objections are to be forced to pay for immoral procedures and products when they are readily available to women through planned Parenthood? Not on your life
The never ending dilemma – choice vs no choice vs no choice and benefits.
I think I’ll go for the choice. WOOH HUMAN RIGHTS.
Reblogged this on Amelia Enberg and commented:
With such an impactful decision, it should inspire discourse! This article is just one of the many voices chiming in about the Hobby Lobby Supreme Court ruling from yesterday, but it does a nice job of including some lesser known aspects of the issue at hand. The important takeaway is that as voters and citizens, we need to be educated in what our political figureheads are doing and the ramifications of their actions–whether direct or indirect. Conversations are important as well, because it means we actually care!
And check out the comments, it is the most entertaining part!
Such a divisive topic! The point remains that irrespective of one’s personal beliefs and values, the opportunity for basic human rights should be extended to all people. It’s kind of unbelievable that in 2014 such a decision could be upheld by the SCOTUS. I particularly appreciate your admonition that this is not a defeat, but a reminder that we mustn’t forget the importance of voting. Touché.
I reblogged this. It’s excellent. I’ll be sharing it everywhere! 🙂 Thanks.
I have been trying to wrap my head around how birth control is covered under healthcare. Is it really your businesses job to pay for that, or do people just enjoy getting as much free stuff as they can out of deals?
In a slightly more sane system all healthcare (including contraception) would be provided by the state; it’s a ridiculous fudge that employers have to provide it in the USA. But as that’s how the system stands…
I would say that contraception is fairly important for any sexually-active woman (and for men, too, unless they really want to give away half their earnings), and that should be enough reason to make it freely available. Again, I would rather that private companies weren’t the ones providing it, but that’s the system the Americans have.
And what’s wrong with getting as much as you can out of a deal? When CEOs do it, they’re praised for their business acumen; when employees do it, it’s bad all of a sudden?
Hello.
So, the Green family thinks they can have their cake & eat it? First it was corporations are people; now corporations can have religion? This world has gone crazy.
I really enjoyed your article even though I do not agree with some of your points. I found 2 articles that state prior to ACA litigation HL did not cover Plan B or IUDs and this sounds correct because
my insurance did not cover those items until recently however I could obtain Plan B over the counter at any pharmacy.
I understand the need to rein in big business/government corruption but i also believe it is these same business/corporatipns that will help improve the economy if greedy career politicians will get out of the way and do the job we pay them for.
I am totally in agreement with voting. Only we can change our world by voting in people who act on the people’s will without thought of lining their own pockets. Conversations are important about how we fix this issue but all anyone wants to do is argue about who’s right or wrong. Businesses are people. They are created by people and run by people they are not a thing just as religions are not a thing they are about people for people. If you want go even further our government is run by people but not nessisarily for the people. Good and bad can be found in all and what we need to do is weed out the bad by working together. I truly believe that most people are right in the middle neither left or right but what is the fun or headlines in that. Please people do your own research and make an educated and informed decision and vote.
Upcoming case concerning Non-profits and contraceptives.
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/judicial/210277-after-hobby-lobby-whats-next
SCOTUS opened this can of worms (I agree with this decision, btw. It didn’t cut off all birth control, only four, and allowing it to be spun into a story of epic proportions is a disservice) because they also decided that corporations have free speech (a decision that I don’t agree with). If you give a corporation one First Amendment freedom, you have to give them the others too. That is the American way!
Your point about voting and why it matters, that is something I can sink my teeth into. If you are an American, it is your duty.
SCOTUS issued a revised statement saying their decision affects all contraception, not just these four.
Reblogged this on Hillview Art and commented:
Read this very sensible post about Hobby Lobby for the truth about big business vs the rest of us.
Thanks for the knowledgeable viewpoint, I’m reblogging it.
This was the most amazing post I’ve seen yet.
I think you protest too much. These same nine people ruled to uphold the Affordable Care Act. Was that also a reminder that all our votes matter and that we should rail against that decision? Let’s see how this plays out. All the doomsday scenarios being portrayed because of the Hobby Lobby ruling are over the top. Americans, if still controlled by Americans, want abortion to be legal, they want legal contraceptives. They don’t care if you marry a tree, let alone a same sex partner. So a few businesses don’t supply free everything, that’s not the end of the world. Get a grip.
Don’t forget, some liberals live in big houses too. And maybe their dinner parties aren’t quite as nice.
While I enjoy sarcasm, I would offer that the caption under the photo of the soldier is quite a stretch comparison to this issue. That being, 1, none of us actively get to decide where our portion of our paid taxes go. The government can tell you it’s going to feed the poor, not military spending for all they care. And 2, even if you’re not “religiously” okay with war, does that go too for defense spending? That is to say you want zero military, no national defense, no homeland security, etc. spending? We’ll have to hope you don’t work in a tall building that a plane is crashed in to, because if you did, there would be no justice for your death.
Reblogged this on Love, Life & Caffeine and commented:
I don’t normally get my big behind into politics because:
1. It’s a headache. I don’t need the government giving me reasons to argue with people.
2. It’s a headache. I don’t need the government giving me more reasons to distrust them.
3. It’s a headache. I don’t need the government giving me more reasons to be angry with the world.
However, this very nice man blogged a very nice post that hit a lot of points and some of the comments have some sane views as well.
Also, crocheted condoms.
Thank mother Gaia we’re not forced to work at Hobby Lobby. I’ll just have to find a job elsewhere that offers benefits for me to prevent conception. Or, since they pay so well, I may not need them to buy my birth control directly. I could just not buy that case of beer and go to the pharmacy.
Anybody hear of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act…signed by Bill Clinton, circa 1993; passed near unanimously by a Democrat senate? Irony. I love it.
Here’s the point. What enabled Hobby Lobby to deny those contraceptives was a law signed by Bill Clinton, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The government was found to be in violation of its own law, a Clinton law, and yet the Clinton’s are out ripping their own law here. It’s hilarious. The Supreme Court upheld Clinton’s law. I think it’s really interesting to note here that there was a time when Democrats supported in near unanimous fashion the concept of religious freedom.
I remember a long time back that Eckerd Drugs in Florida told their employees to vote a certain way in an election. Now they would not know what you did in the booth but speaking against their concepts of life, of who should speak about what in their stories or post what on their bulletin board. Their attitude is we pay your salary and therefore you better think along our lines.
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Mmmmm
Absolutely 100% agree with you and love the way you wrote this. You may have lost some “fans” but you’ve gained a few (me being one of them!)
Ha! Love the crocheted condoms. Interesting post.
Really good piece. I’ve just shared it on FB and will start following you. Thanks!
I really appreciate it!
I think your post was a well-stated opinion. Not sure I lean one way or another actually. I’ve been told in other venues that I have a penis and don’t count in having an opinion on this. 🙂 But here’s something to digest…
1. Don’t be discouraged with the naysayers who post on your site who can get downright obsessive and rude. It’s the risk we all run having a blog.
2. I’ve been spinning around the sun for more than half a century now and I have seen SCOTUS rulings seem totally earthshaking and nearly spark riots in the streets; I have seen wars come and go, and each an every one has been borderline lunacy for the sake of the status quo who was fearful about something that proved unfounded. I’ve seen crooked politicians and crazy scandals, and I’ve seen the trials and tribulations of social change. Many seem to think the current mood of the nation is something akin to being on the brink of some apocalypse. Not so (having lived through 1968.. the worst time in the last century). You mentioned the most important thing.. vote. SCOTUS interprets cases as they sit with the Constitution. The Constitution can be changed by Congress. It may take years.. but that’s why our democracy works for us. There’s always a light at the end of the tunnel. This is not one bit about Hobby Lobby, or their owners, or some alleged hypocrisy of their actions, so arguing about that just does not focus on the issue at hand. Waste of time. The issue is, how far does/should freedom of religion go in our society?
Thanks for that amazing perspective, Doug.
Reblogged this on GoodOleWoody's Blog and Website.
I just cannot get over how everyone in support of this decision is completely ignoring the fact that Hobby Lobby covered Plan B in their insurance plan before. How can you claim religious freedom? This is clearly just a temper tantrum that will ultimately affect a lot of women. There is no way this is just ending with Hobby Lobby and IUDs and Plan B.
I’m honestly shocked at the criticism you’re getting based on this post. I haven’t completely formed an opinion on this yet, but I think your post is one of the more balanced responses I’ve seen so far. It’s not preachy, it’s not emotional…it’s just an articulately stated viewpoint.
Well written. I feel like a lot of this outrage on this ruling has been brought about by an over willingness by progressives to exploit the fears of women about birth control. People hear birth control and suddenly the issue is lost to the ages. One side says “this is evil” the other side says “your evil”, and the argument devolves into insanity.
I want to take a quick moment to say that I am not trying to stir the pot. I know that this is an issue that many people are very passionate about, and I respect that. I know that it is popular to bash the TEA party, and thanks to the biases in the media it is very easy to do. However having been at the 9/12 TEA Party, the 8/28 restoring honor rally, and countless local TEA Party meetings/rallies, I can say from actual experience that they are not the mustachioed villains that the media and many on the left try to make them appear. I know that weighs little with most of the progressives who are reading this, but I had to get that out there.
ANYWHO, for those who are still reading not just waiting for the “Gotcha moment” I would like try and show this case from a different view point. We are a nation of laws. We have laws that outline and limit the powers of the government. The federal government was denied by the people of this country many powers. The Bill of Rights outlines what the powers are denied to the Federal government, then with the tenth amendment restricts them to those powers outlined in the Constitution. Giving the rest of them to either the states or leaving them with the people.
So with that being said the decision this week could easily be considered a victory, as it reasserts the limitations on federal power. Now I ask again that everyone please remain calm. The Green family was fine with providing for 16 of the 20 contraception methods mandated by Obamacare. There were four that they did not want to pay for as they felt they violated their religious beliefs. Hobby Lobby argued that the Obamacare mandate violated the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The RFRA reasserted the rights ensured by the first amendment.
Take out the birth control aspect for a moment. In this modern age where the federal government continues to exceed its reach, this ruling is a good in that it limits the continued growth of the federal government.
This ruling does not limit access to birth control, this ruling does not restrict birth control. This ruling is not about birth control, it is about religious liberty. This ruling prevents the federal government from mandating that people violate their religious beliefs.
There is no law saying that women have to work for Hobby Lobby. If they are not happy with working for Hobby Lobby, they can go look for an employer that offers the incentive packages that they want. If Hobby Lobby starts losing their qualified work force because they do not offer the incentives that qualified employee want, they will have to change their incentives to encourage a return of these qualified employees.
If you look at the ruling for what it really is, a reassertion of the rule of law in the United States, something our nation is drastically in need of, it is a victory for the American People as a whole.
Now we can have the debate about changing the law, in this case the Religious Freedom Restoration Act that Bill Clinton signed into law. That is a fair debate, but the Supreme Court does not write laws, they merely interpret. The President enforces, and the Congress legislates.
The flaw I find in this type of argument is this: When you establish a national standard in the public interest, for major interstate or international businesses whose purpose is commerce and not the expression of religion or belief, it is the job of Congress to regulate how that law applies according to the interstate commerce clause. I am with you insofar as that regulation shouldn’t infringe on free expression of religious beliefs: no law should ever force the Greens or anyone else to use birth control or have an abortion (or any other medical procedure) against their religious conscious. However, this ruling allows the Greens to trump national laws affecting the obligations of their huge, publicly chartered corporation to follow laws affecting public health that they as individuals disagree with, an by extension, even over the individual religious and workplace rights of their employees. Not only that, but SCOTUS used the concept that the Greens held this belief without really subjecting it to any validation or scrutiny, as government entities would do if they were deciding the legitimacy of a conscientious objector to be exempt from the draft, or even something as simple on the surface as establishing a religious clothing article exemption for a member of the armed forces. Here, Hobby Lobby, which routinely engages in all kinds of commerce which violates its supposedly close held beliefs (chiefly through its supply chain in China), has been able to cherry pick one religious issue espoused by the owners to exempt the entire company from obligations under a national public health workplace standard. What may be more Important, is that Christian and Hebrew scriptures supposedly providing a foundation for the Green family’s beliefs actually have nothing to say at all on the actual subject of abortion. This is not to say that the church has not weighed in on the matter, but if one is making an argument that personal beliefs override national law, then one might hope the Supreme Court would subject that belief to some form of proof burden of actual religious foundation. Of course, the Supreme Court was probably wise enough to recognize that doing that creates a definite proxy for using religious standards to evaluate laws – and so it would create a precedent that might apply equally using Papal issuance, Sharia, or a Yishuv ruling to also assert religious objections that would have precedence over Congressional decisions. In any case, the separation of Church and state was a primary objective in creating the first amendment, and SCOTUS has now taken the precarious position of deciding that certain religious beliefs can allow companies to not have to follow public workplace standards, which by extension means it can also decide that others are invalid. But at the end of the day, religious beliefs are spurious and unprovable things that vary from person to person even supposedly espousing the same religion, and while the free practice of religion should indisputably be protected at the individual level, such beliefs should not have become the basis of regulating major corporations having nothing at all to do with religious practice.
I’m OK with religious rights not extending so far if “healthcare rights” are tossed aside. As it is I’m OK with such a pathetic defense against an illegitimate mandate.
Hobby Lobby is a privately held corporation not a publicly held corporation and that was stated in the decision.
Let’s face it as people and Americans we run from and reject the truth. I will definitely read more of your posts and follow you as well. You stated concrete facts that can be found online if the typical person can look outside the box and stop just kneeling down like dogs and take the abuse the government gives us. Folks want to complain when things go wrong but won’t make the steps to go out and vote to let their voice be heard and make a change. I will be going out and vote I’m the next few months and I’m taking all I know that are old enough to vote with me. Please keep the facts coming!
Reblogged this on Journey of Butterflies and commented:
Please read!
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Just like most other large corporations, Hobby Lobby got this big because they have a lot of followers like you and me. There is little opportunity for individual creative expression because our cities are dominated by these very large corporations. WE buy their product and then they dole out the profits from our purchases to universities and colleges of their choice. These are tax write-offs for these companies and they get all of the credit for the donations.
Couldn’t agree more. Excellent response to the first negative comment.
Reblogged this on Apps Lotus's Blog.
Reblogged this on Geeksumptuous and commented:
VERY well written!
. Crocheted condoms are the best thing that I’ve ever seen in my life. Thank you.
Also, I appreciate your gracious words toward the Hobby Lobby people at the beginning. Too often the other side is demonized rather than disagreed with. Keeping people’s good qualities in perspective too is very important.
One thing that jumped out from the post was what you said about oppression. You said…
The fight is not between right and left or republican and democrat…. The fight has always been between the ones who are being oppressed and the ones who have their foot on our necks. Republicans and democrats alike should be alarmed at the possible scope of a decision like this one. Tea Party groups have figured out that if they mobilize a relatively small group of people during primaries, they can manage to get some of their candidates elected–folks with extreme ideologies–BUSINESS RIGHTS OVER HUMAN RIGHTS. But WE are the ones who make the rules of how things work. We can either keep making rules that allow the business owners to amass incredible wealth (while using that wealth to pass legislation making themselves even more wealthy), or we can make rules that focus on Workers Rights–Rules that don’t just enrich a few on the backs of the many.
When I read that it makes me want to say, “YEAH!! F*** THE MAN! GET YOUR FOOT OFF MY NECK!!” But when I stop to think about what we’re talking about, it seems rather out of proportion. When I think about “oppression”, I think about armed men storming a school and taking a hundred girls hostage. I think about terrorists rounding up police officers and blowing them up inside their station in order to establish a caliphate. I think about a little girl being shot in the head because she spoke out about girls going to school. That is oppression. Oppression is not having to pay for three or four types of contraception while getting seven other types for free. Human rights are the right to speak and to worship and so forth. Free birth control is not a human right. I get that the pay gap is grotesquely disparate in this country and I agree that there is no reason (other than greed) for the 0.1%-ers to keep 75% of the wealth in this country or whatever the statistic is. But I also think that we should be very careful about legislating the wealth out of the pockets of the rich and into the poor (BTW: poor by American standards is filthy rich by the standards of the world, but I digress.). It may be immoral for that group of people to hoard their wealth, but is it any more moral for us to set out to take it from them against their will? Who am I to demand that Bill Gates give me so much money just because he has it and I don’t? I’m pretty sure the Soviets tried a similar experiment in wealth redistribution and it didn’t work out too well for them. Just a thought.
hey. a petite survey.. to vote for the best of video games of all times ? 🙂
http://gameroidpro.com/2014/07/02/the-best-games-of-2013/
Before you start arguing about HL, hear my argument first. Listen to my vitriol and disgust. Listen to my prepared talking points. The only ones you want to stop from arguing are those who disagree with you. Free speech is only allowed if you have the right opinion. Even better if you could control thought.
I was going to be snarky, but I read some of your blog post, Ann, and you seem like a really cool person.
I definitely have an opinion on this issue, and I don’t try to hide it. I’m not trying to silence people–I’m trying to get them to think about things differently. Sorry if I’m coming across that way.
It seems to be a common vein among writers on this subject who have been freshly pressed. Doesn’t seem like the other side has been freshly pressed, though. The view of the editors of Word Press is evident. Glad you didn’t take my statements so harshly. Since the case was decided along political lines, your answer is to get your people out to vote.
I want to address the part of your post about Hobby Lobby importing and selling a bunch of cheap stuff made in China. Do you shop at Target stores? I pretty much stopped shopping there after reading labels on their store brand inventory for about an hour. “Made in China” was predominantly what I saw; occasionally, I would find “Made in Indonesia” or “Made in Malaysia.” While Target is not the subject of a Supreme Court case, it obviously has no respect for human rights, right?. I read labels and buy according to my conscience. Do you? I even contact organic store brand companies to find out where they import their organic ingredients from. Do you? Did you know that the much-demonized Wal-Mart sells more “Made in USA” than any other store I have found? But they are taboo among the socially conscious because of how they treat their female employees. Does Hobby Lobby deny their female employees excellent pay, equal opportunities, and chance for advancement? I have no love for religious people. I think man-made religions are ridiculous, and that includes Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, and so on. I do, however, believe in the First Amendment (though my belief in it is irrelevant – it is what determines the decisions of our SCOTUS). I also believe that employers who hold beliefs that I do not share have a right to those beliefs. The Federal Government cannot violate a person’s religious beliefs, period (though it does every day – I agree. Is that justification for violating even more rights?). Hobby Lobby is a closely-held corporation. We don’t need to like everything about their business, but they sure do seem to have a business model that is working in this awful economy. The Greens are not threatening to fire women who use birth control methods that they object to. They merely believe it violates their conscience to pay for such contraceptives. The First Amendment, so beautiful and amazing, also protects your right to disagree with the Greens and publish your objections. I do hope more people use care in purchasing items made in countries that treat their people well. And I hope everyone shops according to their conscience and not their wallets. What is sad is that there are fewer and fewer “Made in USA” labels to be found. But that is an entirely different conversation.
I care very little about “Made In America” labels. You say it’s sad that there are fewer and fewer “Made in USA” labels, but a big part of the reason there are less and less of those labels is because the people who own the manufacturing centers have moved the factories to parts of the world that have no workers rights. This has the added effect of diminishing the middle class and making people more and more dependent on low priced good (and less able and inclined to “shop according to their conscience”). But feel free to blame the poor for their shopping decisions if you want to….
And if I’m being honest, I find your reverence for the first amendment, coupled for your disdain for religions, confusing. I don’t know how a person acknowledges “conscience” without acknowledging a higher power. It’s a very confusing and inconsistent ideology.
I am sorry that you find my disdain for religions inconsistent with my veneration for the law and the Constitution. I find no disconnect between the two. I often confuse people because I don’t tow a political line or ideology. In our politically polarized country, I acknowledge that I am an oddity.
I agree with your statement that most manufacturing has moved offshore. We need to consider why that is. Is it merely corporate greed or the inability of corporations to make any kind of profit in the United States, or a combination of both. Here in Connecticut, most manufacturers have left the state due to high taxes, prohibitive regulations, and unfriendly communities (no one wants businesses in their communities — “not in my neighborhood” — which covers most of the state). Are corporations greedier than in the past (I believe the answer is definitely yes). By buying “Made in USA” I am rewarding those American manufacturers who have decided to invest in their own communities and nation by sacrificing a little (or a lot of) profit to stay here.
Fantastic article. Unlike a lot of people commenting, I agree with you that the decision is total BS!
Nice post! Most would say I’m pretty “liberal” and “feminist” in my beliefs. I know these are being thrown at me as insults, but I proud of where I stand. With that said… I may not “agree” with Hobby Lobby, but I respect their right as business owners, and I respect their religious beliefs. I don’t have to agree, and that’s the beauty of living in this country. And guess what? I can go shop at Michael’s and go about my day. Your post was very thought out.
I think you have a profound misunderstanding of what “rights” are. There is no such thing as “women’s rights” any more than there are “men’s rights” or “green-eyed people’s rights” or “people whose last name begins with a vowel sound” rights.
Rights are HUMAN rights, and are described within the Bill of Rights.
There is no “right” to contraception within the Bill of Rights. It may be an “I want” or “Gee I’d really like to have” connotation to what you want, but that is generally whining and throwing a tantrum. A spoiled little kid approach to life.
There IS however a RIGHT to freedom of religion. It is, indeed, within the Bill of Rights. So I think that you are confusing what is an actual RIGHT compared to an “I want” approach to life.
Forcing someone to do something they fundamentally believe is incompatible with their right to practice their religious beliefs is, without question, an infringement of Constitutional RIGHTS. There is no bar against women (or men for that matter) to purchase birth control as they see fit… but to force it upon another person is not within their RIGHTS.
So many of our social arguments of the day are based upon this false sense of what are actual RIGHTS versus the spoiled child approach of “I want it so it is my RIGHT”.
Please get your logic straightened out and keep on writing (that is, indeed, your RIGHT) but PLEASE don’t try to confuse people.
Reblogged this on My Blog and commented:
One persons viewpoint onHobby Lobby.
Why in the world are we always complaining about having babies? that’s one of the roles of women.
Hobby Lobby drew a line against government oppression, by a miracle (God) they won the case. Don’t forget that throughout history only the governments are the ones oppressing the people, not the other way around. Hobby Lobby does not even want to be a “corporation” the oppressive government has forced them into it through their unlawful taxation scheme. Notice I said “unlawful” instead of “legal”. To understand this, one must learn what happened when a private corporation named “UNITED STATES” high jacked the government of a 1776 republic called “united states of America” It’s a long story, but it helps one to understand why they are busy reducing our liberties in small steps at a time. They are able to fool most people. Hobby Lobby was a small step to slow the PROGRESS into totalitarian government. There is a reason they call themselves “progressive”.
“God miraculously won the Hobby Lobby case.” — We got it, Andy. *slowly backs away*
*slowly backs away* LOL, that’s great, I’ll have to remember that one. Cheers.
OK, I guess you have never read Rules for Radicals. This is what the Progressives want. If you think government can supply your needs just remember that if it supplies them they can take it away. just look at the IRS targeting these groups you despise, what happens if it (the IRS) decides you need to be shut down I will go to my grave defending your right to free speech but I will not stand for ignorance and in the famous words of Forrest Gump “that’s all I have to say about that”.
How many things are the result of a very large conspiracy in your world, Jowens?
Reblogged this on normanjeremaih1 and commented:
A woman may call one child as a mistake out of wedlock but there after is a pass time
Interesting article.
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terima kasih banyak atas infonya
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Dearies, you are right on the money, so 2 speak. Absolutely love the crochet condoms. Hopefully they will be given as swag bag gifts 2 all Tea Party Members (pardon the pun). Keep up the great posts!
I was surprised to like this post.
I’m from New Zealand, where contraceptives are just NOT an issue – they’re covered by our government-funded medical system, and we can get them very cheaply. I just don’t *get* what the problem is with contraceptives in the US – I mean, do you all want families with 18 kids and a huge teenage pregnancy rate or what?
I’m not intending to be critical (honestly!) but the US seems to be going off on a tangent to the rest of the world, and the tangent you’re on doesn’t look sane. I sincerely hope you all get things straightened out over there. I wouldn’t want to be a woman in America right now 😦
I wouldn’t want to be a woman in America right now either! 🙂
Lethally, you bring up a common point of confusion surrounding this issue. The owners of Hobby Lobby do not object to contraceptives categorically. In fact, their health care plan pays for a variety of contraceptive devices/methods for Hobby Lobby employees. Their appeal to the Supreme Court centered around their moral objection to paying for a few very specific birth control methods that they believe induce abortions and thereby murder unborn children. I have no idea what media coverage of this issue looks like in New Zealand, but here in the states there have been frequent (and in my opinion dishonest) misrepresentations of the issue in the news that would lead people to believe that the case is centered on contraception. The apparent motive for communicating that their objection is with contraception (which technically is not false) is to induce a reaction much like yours. Contraception is widely accepted and used here in the US while abortion is much more controversial. By portraying Hobby Lobby as being stuck on birth control, they can be much more easily marginalized and dismissed as out of touch religious fanatics. If you can’t tell, I personally find such deliberate misrepresentations of the facts loathsome.
Hi Chris – What I find weird is that your *employer* could have a say in whether you get affordable contraception or not. That’s an incredible infringement of personal space, to me.
Over here (and in every other western country I know of, except the US), the only person who has *any* say in what contraceptives I use is my doctor.
I can understand that you’d find misrepresentations upsetting, but the biggest misrepresentation of the whole business is that NONE of these contraceptives work by inducing abortion. See https://wordpress.com/read/post/id/15671693/4340/ – a post I also found interesting.
Overall, I’d have to say that the US is definitely coming across as a land where the kooks are in control at the moment. The Hobby Lobby issue is just another nail in the kooky coffin.
Re abortion: it’s not an issue here. People have abortions. There are unwanted pregnancies. It’s nobody’s business but the woman’s. They’re cost-free here, and provided safely in hospital without question. Same in Australia, my country of birth.
Interestingly, both countries have significantly lower teenage pregnancy *and* abortion rates (and child poverty rates, despite being less wealthy countries as a whole) than the US, suggesting that banning access to contraceptives doesn’t stop either. And hey, if a person doesn’t want an abortion, don’t have one! But it seems to me that those who are most vocal about abortion are least active about children’s rights and poverty, which screams hypocrisy to me. They care more about a bunch of cells than real living, breathing children.
Just my viewpoint. Cheers.
Hi Lethally,
I appreciate your thoughtful response. It seems to me that the crux of this difference of opinion centers on the abortion issue. If a society accepts the legitimacy of ending a pregnancy by any means, then it must seem silly (or kooky?) to dither over forms of contraception and who pays for them at that point. The morality of abortion has been thoroughly debated all over the web so I won’t go into that here except to offer one simple question that may serve as food for thought.
I understand that pursuing a just society is a very high priority for theboeskool and so it’s likely that his readers feel the same way. So I ask you and the rest of his readers to honestly consider; how can a society be just if it accepts the systematic annihilation of a group of people that cannot defend or speak up for themselves?
Again, I appreciate your thoughts. Best wishes.
I used to love hobby lobby until they started showing their azz. You’re right, as long as we stayed far from politics I would probably think they were nice people. But let me give people a reality check, people who are this critical and morally superior are just as dirty behind closed doors. I’m pretty sure there are extramarital affairs and teen pregnancy. They are just wealthy enough to keep their dirt undercover. I will never step one foot in Hobby Lobby ever again. I hope they go out of business!
Religious liberty is an inalienable right. Having someone else pay for your abortion pill is not.
Reblogged this on Ann'sRazzJazz.
Reblogged this on LITTLEcreds and commented:
My exact sentiments.
Replying to @Chris Shaffer’s comments above “how can a society be just if it accepts the systematic annihilation of a group of people that cannot defend or speak up for themselves?”
Because the concept of bodily autonomy comes first. Let me explain. Here’s a quote from someone who explains this concept in relation to abortion more succinctly than I can in this space:
“There’s a concept called bodily autonomy. It’s generally considered a human right. Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. It’s why you can’t be forced to donate blood, tissue or organs. Even if you’re dead. Even if you’d save or improve 20 lives. It’s why someone can’t touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent.
A fetus is using someone’s body parts. Therefore, under bodily autonomy, it is there by permission not by right. It needs a person’s continual consent. If they deny or withdraw consent, the pregnant person has the right to remove them from that moment. A fetus is equal in this regard, because if I need someone else’s body parts to live, they can also legally deny me their use.
By saying a fetus has a right to someone’s body parts until it is born, despite the pregnant person’s wishes, you’re doing two things:
1) Granting a fetus more rights to other people’s bodies than any born person
2) Awarding a pregnant person less rights to their own body than a corpse.”
If we got rid of the concept of bodily autonomy, you’d basically be agreeing (in principle) to the government (or anyone else who wanted to) having access to any body part of any person they wished. I don’t like the idea of the government being able to harvest organs (or whatever) at random. That’s a scary concept! Denying bodily autonomy would be equivalent to denying people sovereignty over our own bodies. That’s what anti-abortion laws are equivalent to.
Thanks for the discussion, but I stand firmly in support of bodily autonomy – my own and others. Including yours.
Cheers.
Some are unfollowing you because you wrote this, but I’m actually following because of this article. I say this stuff all the time and some try to refute, others try to ignore what I’m saying, and a few agree. Haha. Respect for this.
Keep writing! I agree with you wholeheartedly. These corps are using the name of Jesus to fatten their wallets. Didn’t Jesus speak against using the Lord’s name to promote greed and overturn a temple for such behavior? SMH Anyway, excellent post!
Keep them legs closed girl’s, i mean lady’s
AYO IM FOLLOWING YOU
This ish is SO informative homie!
Great GREAT READ!
AH! God Bless you ^~^